Search Featured: Barry Schwartz from Search Engine Roundtable

Barry Schwartz from Search Engine Roundtable and CEO and Owner of Rusty Brick has granted us as a team an interview. You can see Barry’s contributions everywhere. He is the hardest working man in SEO. Enjoy!

Mike Dammann: Barry, you’ve been covering conferences, events and everything SEO related for many years, what do you believe has changed since you have started when it comes to what people are most interested in knowing and learning about SEO?

Barry Schwartz: Well, I think people are a lot more knowledgeable about SEO then they were in the past. Back when I started, SEO was more of a black art. Don’t get me wrong, many people still feel SEO is something mystical and all. But I think many more understand that SEO has basic guidelines and rules. Outside of that…

Search Engine and Webmaster relations have changed drastically from when I started.

Google is a lot more open now then they were in the past. In fact, we only had Matt Cutts as our liaison, now we have a whole group, the Google Webmaster Central team, answering our questions.

Jayson Gibson: Barry - I just read the recent post on Search Engine Roundtable, the one concerning banning websites becoming illegal, I read the post referenced on the search engine watch forums and it looked like everyone thought this is a great idea. I personally think its absurd - what are your thoughts on this and the possibility of it.

Barry Schwartz: Until Google becomes a utility company, which some may argue they are becoming slowly, then I don’t think that would be feasible. This has not stopped companies from suing Google for being banned, we have many cases like that.

Jayson Gibson: Are they having any success?

Barry Schwartz: None have had any success in the courts.

Here is a post on that case: http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/003511.html

Yes, surprise, Google won http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/012796.html

Mike Dammann: Barry, in the next 5 years, do you anticipate more of a who knows who and who spends what on SEO as important factors for ranking compared to today and do you believe it will be inevitable for even organic search results to become less based on quality of sites listed?

Barry Schwartz: Are you asking will search engines become less dependent on link analysis as a ranking aid?

Mike Dammann: Yes, and do you believe it will pretty much become impossible for Google to analyze which sites have the most value for each keyword since it seems more and more webmasters are catching on to what it takes to get their sites up on the SERPs.

Barry Schwartz: Google is doing a few things today to combat link manipulation. They are going after sites that sell links, they are penalizing some sites that buy links and they are discrediting links that look like they are not editorial in nature. So Google is doing a good job figuring out which links are good and bad - for the most part. But will it be enough? Nah, Google knows they need to look at other factors, that is where personalized search comes in - but we have a way to go with that. So in short, things will change in that area over the course of 5 years.

Jayson Gibson: Barry - it seems like Search Engine Roundtable has always acknowledged that buying links is an important part of every search engine strategy. Are there any websites you refuse to buy links for in fear of getting penalized - do you recommend using services like text-link-ads and textlinkbrokers?

Barry Schwartz: When did I ever acknowledge buying links is an important part of an SEO strategy? Getting quality links is a critical part of SEO, but it doesn’t have to be done through buying links.

Julie Kent: Do you think that Yahoo will merge with Microsoft, and if so, what effects do you think this will have on SEO in general?

Barry Schwartz: Well, Yahoo! just announced a second ago that they are testing google ads on their search results, that is why i have been delayed in responding. In addition to that news, Yahoo’s second largest shareholder, Legg Mason, said they would support Yahoo, if MSFT wouldn’t raise their bid.

Meaning, Yahoo has a lot more money from a huge investment firm to back them, which should make shareholders happy. Hold, hot off the press, Microsoft sent a new statement out. They said “Any definitive agreement between Yahoo! and Google would consolidate over 90% of the search advertising market in Google’s hands. This would make the market far less competitive, in sharp contrast to our own proposal to acquire Yahoo! We will assess closely all of our options. Our proposal remains the only alternative put forward that offers Yahoo! shareholders full and fair value for their shares, gives every shareholder a vote on the future of the company, and enhances choice for content creators, advertisers, and consumers.”

Blah, means nothing, since the Yahoo! and Google deal is just a limited US test on less then 3% of their search queries.

Mike Dammann: Social networking, I have asked Danny Sullivan the same questions and am wondering how long do you think that the craze will last or do you believe that social media will actually play a more and more growing role and eventually become a substitute to some extent for search engines? And also, what do you believe the future of video and voice search is going to be? (Example: SearchMe)

Barry Schwartz: I don’t think social networking is a fad. i think you will see more companies try to use the concepts to bring out better and more integrated services around their content. Yes, I believe it will be used more and more in improving search relevancy, along with personalized search. Knowing who you associate with and what interests you have, can be a huge aid in search - but not a foolproof aid, so it has to be done in the right areas. Video and voice search are both in their infancy. the same issue needs to be addressed properly… how to understand the content in that video.

Content is the main issue with video and voice. The technology, today, is far from perfect. But search engines are throwing videos into search results all the time. They are using video titles, descriptions and so on to determine content and context. But that, on a more scalable level, can be abused easily.

Mike Dammann: So basically more factors will play a role in SEO? Especially visual since there is a need to not only rank, but be the site that people click on?

Barry Schwartz: Yes.

Julie Kent: Back to the Yahoo/Google thing…Even though just a test, if successful, do you think there might be a chance that this could set some new trend?

Barry Schwartz: If it is successful, which I assume they hope for, why test it otherwise. Then this can and will lead to a broader partnership and scare the heck out of Microsoft. Hence their statement. As in “trend,” many other search engines use google to power their organic and/or search ads.

Ask.com uses Google for ads as do many others.

As SEMs, yea, their is some concern to see Google have their search share (on the paid side) jump from a huge share to a dictatorship.

As MSFT said, it would “consolidate over 90% of the search advertising market.”

Julie Kent: Barry - where will you be speaking next, what conferences? And, can you give us a sneak peek at what you might be talking about?

Barry Schwartz: I speak Friday at Jim Boykin’s Link Ninja seminar on Universal Search.

Julie Kent: What SEO forums and blogs do you enjoy reading and are participating in?

Barry Schwartz: Sphinn, SEW Forums, SERoundtable Forums, Cre8asite, webmasterworld, and others.

Jayson Gibson: Barry What’s next with Search Engine Roundtable, RustyBrick Inc. and you? Anything we can expect to see shortly?

Barry Schwartz: More video recaps, and video casts. Subscribe at http://www.seroundtable.com/videocast.xml

Jayson Gibson: Barry - I’ve read that converting a site into different languages helps increase rankings - have you had any positive experience with this?

Barry Schwartz: Jayson, if you want to rank well in a foreign language, you should have content in that language. So yes, it can help increase traffic.

Thank you, Barry Schwartz for the interview. Looking forward to many more years of your contributions on places like Search Engine Land.

Search Featured: Dustin Williams of SEO.com

Well everybody, this is my first interview for the SearchFeature Blog (my first interview for anything ever, really).  And to get things off to a great start, I was able to interview Dustin Williams, from SEO.com.  Dustin is a SEO Specialist for SEO.com and he is the Master Administrator of the forums at SEO.com.  Dustin is known at the SEO.com forum, and several other webmaster forums, as Web Gazelle.  The SEO.com guys (most of them anyway) are pictured here.  Back Row (Left to Right): Arnie, Scott, Adam, Peter.  Front Row (Left to Right): Dustin, Dave

Stephanie: How long have you been in the SEO business and how did you get started? How long have you worked for SEO.com and what is your title there?

Dustin: I have been in the SEO business for 4 years and I got started when I was hired to be part of a web team for an online retail company. As part of the web team I was responsible for updating and maintaining their website as well as performing the SEO for their site. About a year ago I applied for a full-time SEO specialist position with the company that was called Web targeted at that time. They were in the process of finalizing the deal that would make Web Targeted into what is now SEO.com. I hadn’t been employed there for even a week before we changed to SEO.com. I am currently an SEO Specialist at SEO.com.

Stephanie: Why SEO as a career? What is so special/exciting about SEO that makes you so passionate about it?

Dustin: I originally studied web design in school and never thought I would become so involved in SEO and internet marketing. It was through practicing it and seeing the results that I began to really enjoy it. It is seeing the results of my efforts that motivates me to keep doing it. Seeing a site that isn’t showing up in searches and then being able to apply my knowledge of SEO to help the site show up for targeted search terms is the driving force that keeps me interested in and involved with SEO.

Stephanie: You seem very passionate and serious when it comes to SEO. Are you like that in real life as well? What else are you passionate about?

Dustin: I am passionate about SEO because I enjoy seeing the results of my work. I am like that with most things in life. I have an interest in aquarium fish. I currently have a 20 gallon freshwater tank and I also have my own site about freshwater fish keeping. It is something that my Dad and his Dad also had an interest in. You could say it is in my blood. If space permitted me I would have a much larger tank.

Stephanie: Who are the most influential people in your SEO career? 

Dustin: The person who got me started with SEO is the guy who was the senior web developer on the team when I worked for the internet retail company. His name is Brad Young. He taught me the basics and pointed me out to a couple good tutorials on the internet. Brad is the person responsible for leading me to where I am today.

Stephanie: What do you think will happen in the world of SEO, let’s say five years from now?  What changes do you foresee for the industry? Will there still be such a thing as organic optimization?

Dustin: It is hard to say for sure what could change in how the search engines work. Algorithms are constantly being changed to try to improve the quality of search results. I do believe that organic optimization will still be as important in five years as it is today.

Stephanie: The SEO.com forums are fairly new. What is so special about your forum? What sets it apart from the rest?

Dustin: SEO.com as a company is still young. If you include the years that the company existed as Web Targeted then we have a few more years of experience as an SEO company. The forums were only just launched in January of this year but we have seen much growth already. I think something that we offer that is unique is that each one of the experienced SEO specialists at SEO.com is an Administrator on the forums. That means that all questions posted in the forums will be able to be answered by someone who is experienced and has achieved great results from their work. Where is it better to learn SEO than from experienced SEO professionals who practice it every day?

Stephanie: How about the rumor that SEO.com paid $5 million for the domain name? Care to confirm or deny the rumor?

Dustin: That figure is just a rumor. I know that 5 million is not correct but I do not know the actual purchase amount.

Stephanie: What do you see as the future of SEO.com? How will you distinguish your company as different from all the rest of the SEO companies out there?

Dustin: We have great plans for SEO.com. Some are close to being ready to be launched. We plan on offering various levels of SEO services that will make our services affordable to both small business and large corporations. We plan on staying current with the changing trends of the industry by having representatives present at as many SEO conferences as possible.

Stephanie: What inspires you the most when you do your work?

Dustin: It is seeing the results of my work that inspires me the most. I have always enjoyed doing things where, when it is finished, you can see some type of positive effect from what you have done. For SEO, it is the end result that is inspiring.

Stephanie: What is the #1 piece of advice that you would give to someone just starting out in SEO? What are the most common mistakes that you see people making when starting out in SEO?

Dustin: If anyone is going to get into SEO and search marketing they need to be prepared to have plenty of patience. SEO isn’t something that brings results overnight. It takes time for all the work that is put into it to bring the desired results. Anything that offers quick results in the search marketing industry has to be manipulating the system in some form or another, and the results will be short lived. My advice is to stay away from anything that promises fast results. Have patience and don’t give up if the first effort at SEO doesn’t bring the desired results.

Stephanie: Where did the name Web Gazelle come from?

Dustin: The name Web Gazelle came to be when I was first registering at some SEO forums. I didn’t want to use my real name so I needed to come up with an alias. That day at work a couple co-workers and I were imitating Randy Jackson (a judge on American Idol). We were calling each other “Dawg” like Randy does. Then we decided to replace the word “Dawg” with exotic animals. Gazelle was one that came to my head. My co-workers started saying “you da gazelle” to me. Since I was part of the web team I added Web to the front and came up with Web Gazelle for my alias on the forums. We like to mix some fun in with our work.

And speaking of mixing fun with their work, this is a little video that they made one snowy day last winter.  The crazy man with his shirt off is Adam, Nelson is filming it, and Scott is driving.  So who ever said that SEO guys are not cool?  Oh, and Adam won a $5 bet for doing this little stunt.

Search Featured: Rick Schwartz

Mike Dammann: How did you get the idea to start the T.R.A.F.F.I.C. Domain Conference and Expos and how close are you to the search engine industry?

Rick Schwartz: It started as a 12 person get together at my home. When 35 wanted to come I hooked up with my Attorney, Howard Neu, and decided we needed a venue other than my house and an agenda of activities and discussions. When 135 signed up we got THRUST into the convention business. 6 months later we held our second TRAFFIC show in Las Vegas and this time 235 showed up. By the time we have another show in Florida a few months later, we were 350 strong. So it was never planned, it was needed and we just took the ball and ran with it.

After 10 shows we have established ourselves as the key event in the space and thousands of domainers and investors have come to one show or another.

As for the search industry, it is an industry having more and more in common with domain owners. In our show in May in Orlando we will have at least one SEO panel and in future conferences even more as our channels overlap more and more.

Mike Dammann: Rick, you have recently made your last blog post and announced that one of your main projects will be Property.com.
Are you getting more involved in the development process?

Rick Schwartz: Very much so. Property.com is one project, however the project I am going to put a lot of effort into is Widgets.com. Probably by the time this is published, the site will be up and running. I have put a team together that shares the same vision I have and want to make Widgets.com a very valuable Internet business. It is based on a very simple idea that will allow it to grow virally in a very quick and special way. We are going to tap into some of the brightest minds in the world and run contests that will bring widgets to a new and profitable level. Until now folks made widgets, gave them away for free and that was that. We are going to change that and in the process transform this channel into a profitable money maker.

Mike Dammann: One of the domain names I remember that you’ve owned was men.com which you have since sold, is a part of the reason for you selling it that you want to move away from the adult industry?

Rick Schwartz: Hell no! I sold Men.com because I got a $1.3M cash offer. I have never ran from the adult world. The adult industry has always been YEARS ahead of mainstream. When there was not a penny to be made in mainstream, millions could be made in adult. Yes, I know there is the stigma about adult. However nobody seems to care that all the big hotel chains make more profit selling dirty movies to their guests than they do anywhere else. Sex sells. Always has, always will. It surrounds us. The “Wall” between mainstream and adult on the net is the silliest thing I have ever seen. In the real world no such division exists. Proof is the hotel example I gave above. The adult world has always been ahead of the curve. Going as far back as the VHS or 900 numbers or even streaming video. It is the adult industry that pushes technology forward in many cases.

In my case I own many adult domain names, however I have no adult sites and no adult content. I leave that for others. I just supply the eyeballs. I think certain industries are missing a HUGE opportunity to target those eyeballs, increase their market share and find their demographics. Liquor companies, beer companies, cigarette manufacturers would do very well. Their target audience is sitting right there. But this silly wall and those on Madison Ave are preventing these companies from tapping into a gusher of new business. Just plain shortsighted. Imagine, when I go into the titty bar, their signs and brand are everywhere. They have yet to make the connection online. Shortcomings like these are why I am so bullish about the future of domain and the internet. Because in time they will figure it out. When they do, that unlocks a lot of new $$$ flooding into the market. Some of these companies will sponsor music and concerts that encourage you to kill your family or other violent behavior or other such nonsense but would not advertise on adult sites? That’s more than hypocritical. It’s uninformed business and it will take a recession to wake them up.

Mike Dammann: Being in the SEO industry, you always have the pressure to get and keep your websites ranked. Obviously your domain names and the domain names of your friends do provide a large amount of type-in traffic. How much of an additional push do search engines provide you with and how much time do you spend on studying the search engines?

Rick Schwartz: Very little to be honest. Let me go back. The ONLY reason I started to buy domain names is that I did not have the talent or the smarts to get search engine traffic. I had to look for an alternative way to get traffic. So I went in the back door. I KNEW about “Human behavior” via my involvement with Toll Free Vanity numbers. Those 800 numbers that spell things. I got in that industry at the tail end, but I was able to make the connection that if people surfed 800 numbers to spell things, and they did, that would be even better on the Internet. So I bet there would be a parallel and I was right. So I was late to one party and right on time for another party. Of course a lot of this was theory when it came to the net until I got Dick.com. That was a REAL turning point. I paid $100 for the domain. When I activated it, I made $200 the first night and since then it has pumped out hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now approaching $1m on this single domain. That led me to buy others like ass.com, porno.com, voyeur.com, orgy.com, sexo.com and many others. Those domains I just listed cost me about $80k. Folks thought I was insane. Crazy. Had more dollars than brains. The search guys really hated me. they did not believe in type in traffic back in 1997. It was as if I was cheating. But there was no denying that those few domains were getting 50,000 daily visitors and were making thousands of dollars a day. All along I would take my earnings and invest in mainstream domains even though at that point in time there was no way to monetize them. I knew in time that would change and that mainstream would be much bigger.

So if not for my ignorance, I would have never done so well. Like they say….”Ignorance is Bliss” and I am living proof. Sometimes the less you know can pay big dividends.

Mike Dammann: One of your keynote speakers at the Miami Convention was Steve Forbes. How much of an open-mindedness have you witnessed from Wall Street and major business moguls and how much of an impact do you believe you have on each others?

Rick Schwartz: Having Steve Forbes coming to speak at TRAFFIC was a great moment for the entire domain industry. He understood domains in seconds and for years before he ever met us. He was able to make the connection between the real world and the virtual world long before most. When he spoke about Forbes.com there was no doubt that he understands the net inside and out. He too was a pioneer as Forbes.com went live in 1995 while his competition was yet to get it. Steve articulated a challenging future for domain owners as he tied the sins of the past to the sins of what is yet to come. As domains get more valuable and even become priceless, predators will do everything in their power to STEAL what you have. Laws, lawsuits, whatever.

As for Wall Street…they get it. Venture Capitalists showed up at TRAFFIC in mass. But they are also looking at things differently. They basically have a 5 year window to get in and out and make a killing. That’s a tough road to hoe when the time frame as I see it is more like 20 years.
We also had back and forth with Madison Avenue advertising agencies. For the most part, they just don’t get it. The ones that do, don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to share their successes. But one only has to look at Baby.com owned by Johnson & Johnson, Loans.com owned by Bank of America, Books.com owned by Barnes and Noble. Disney, Proctoer and Gamble, others. But NONE of the ones that “Get it” are willing to talk.” They don’t want the others to figure it out so I don’t blame them. Their counterparts meanwhile are so blinded by “Branding” that they lost sight of the FACT that the ultimate branding is MORE SALES. When corporate America or any business goes to Madison Avenue it IS for branding. But it is also to do more sales. MORE SALES. When a Madison Ave exec shrugs his shoulders to “More sales” I think he is doing a great disservice to his client. I have an extensive blog post about Madison Ave. Those guys should read it everyday until they wake up and figure it out.

http://www.ricksblog.com/my_weblog/2007/04/how_madison_ave.html

Mike Dammann: Let’s say you don’t own any domain names. You know what you have learned in the past few years, but nobody knows who you are and you have limited resources. Where would you start to get into the domain business and which personal mistakes would you avoid making this time?

Rick Schwartz: 1. Stay with dotcom
2. Focus on domains from $50-$1500
3. Make sure it is easy to spell and easy to remember
4. Make sure it MEANS something. 4 words just stuck together does not make a domain name.

The single biggest mistake folks make is getting a .net and not owning the .com version. If you base your business on a .net, chances are ALL that world of mouth traffic will end up on the guys site that has the dotcom version. You will make HIM rich. Additionally, if you were to advertise on TV or radio etc, you would again lose about 25% of your traffic to the other guy. So you basically just hand over 25% of all the dollars you spend and all that effort you put in to your competition. That makes no sense. You end up growing his company more than your own because he did not spend a penny to take advantage of your efforts. This is probably the biggest sticking point with the search industry. They just don’t believe it. They are right in the sense that search engines does not make the distinction between a .net and a .com. However they are 100% wrong when it comes to advertising as I described above.

Mike Dammann: The last word is yours. Is there anything you would like to announce, get off your chest or share with our readers?

Rick Schwartz: I think while the search industry and the domain industry were once diametrically opposed to each other, that is no longer the case. Domainers and the SEO industry have a lot in common and both groups can help each other make more money and that is what it is all about. As this development phase kicks in, the search industry will find out they can do very well with an expanding domain industry. Every domainer I know is seriously looking to develop and expand their prime properties. What few don’t know is that domainers can make decisions on the spot and have the funds to pay the bills and can be great partners with search folks. I always hear the comment from search guys just how easy it is to work with the domain industry. Fast decisions, quick payments and repeat business. A real trifecta!

Search Featured: Seth Godin

Seth I want to thank you for the opportunity to get to know a little bit more about you. In a word you are a genius – what keeps you going, have you not done enough already?

Seth: I’m hardly a genius. I’m just good at making a ruckus, at pointing out the obvious, at giving people a chance to do the things they already knew were right. I’m lucky to be working in a world that fits my personality… I’d be a failure in the 1800s, that’s for sure.

Seth, you were VP of Direct Marketing at Yahoo!, American Magazine called you “America’s Greatest Marketer”, and you are responsible for 10 bestselling books AND Squidoo. Is there anything else we can expect to see soon? Any Grammys coming up?

Seth: The number of people who have heard me sing is small indeed. I’m even asked to sit quietly during “happy birthday.”

I have read a lot of your work and am always impressed with what you constantly deliver. You recently released “The Dip” what’s it about, who will it help the most and where can I get my copy?

Seth: The Dip takes on a topic that has been off-limits for years: Quitting. I think quitting is a good thing, and the ability to quit is a great thing. In a google-centric world, where every choice is only a click away, people always choose the ‘best’ one, or at least the one they think is the best. That makes sense, of course. Why would anyone choose the second or third best?

But if we live in a world where winner takes all, what should you do if you’re in second or fifth place? What should you do if you don’t have enough delegates or a big enough fan base or a good enough business model? My point in the book (which is less than 100 pages long) is that being prepared to quit when you can’t see a path to becoming the best is in fact empowering. It gives you the push you need to not settle. Be the best or do something else.

A little over a month ago I created a Squidoo page, threw some links at it and managed to rank it for decent keywords. Squidoo is a young and very powerful site. What can we expect from Squidoo over the next couple of years? Any new features?

Seth: Squidoo works best when you put a lot into it. A few links and some keywords work okay, but a few hours of thoughtful research and some insightful writing turn it into something truly useful. In the next eight weeks we are rolling out some improvements that are really going to make those pages sing.

Many people wonder how companies like Facebook and MySpace are going to make the money they need to live up to their expectations. Where do you see them making most of their money over the next 5-10 years? Is it going to be enough?

Seth: not everyone agrees, but my feeling is that you can make money interrupting CONTENT with ads, but not COMMUNITY. People don’t want commerce mixed in with their friends and their social graph. So I think that monetizing the astounding page views of these sites is going to be extremely difficult.

When I think of Seth Godin I think of a Guerilla Marketing Guru and bestselling author, but there is more to you than that, right? You are an old-timer in the SEO field – what is the one thing that has always ranked websites well; the one thing that every optimizer should consistently focus on?

Seth: I’m an old timer on the Net… first email in 1976, first Internet startup in 1990. But I underestimated the web and have never claimed any SEO skills at all. My take is pretty simple: The best SEO is great content and a tribe that wants to follow you and talk about you and interact with what you build.

In the time it takes to game the system, I think you can do better by actually working with the system to create content people WANT to find. Once you’ve done that, then yes, hire the best SEO you can find, because it’ll pay.

It seems like Google is making it harder for new websites to grow and survive online. Some claim that in years to come entrance barriers will be so high in some industries that startups will never make it. Are you seeing the same thing or is all of this just one more thing that people will learn from and use to discover new ways to make any good website rank well?

Seth: Every industry matures, and as it matures, it’s harder to find an entry point (want to start a steel mill? I didn’t think so). BUT, I think Google is actually making it easier than it has ever been in the history of mankind to start a business with no money and make a profit.

One more question about SEO concerning links, buying links is nearly out, directories and blogs may be fading, and social media may too dwindle away. What do you think most optimizers will be focusing on to get good rankings in the next few years?

Seth: Content. Probably Content. And definitely, Content

The search engines keep getting smarter. The way to win is to be remarkable, useful, unique and updated.

You have a fundraiser on April 30^th in NYC . From what I understand, it is going to be a little different from the typical long presentation and Q & A. What is this I hear about you giving your $800 four DVD set away free and what is going to be different about the fundraiser? Are there still seats available and is there anything our interested readers should know?

Seth: Thanks for asking. All the money goes to Acumen (in fact, you pay them directly). I have six seats left and I figure they’ll go soon. The details are on my blog. I hope you can come. If you can’t, I hope you’ll buy the DVD set. It’s long, but if what you want is me prattling on, that’s what you get

Thanks Seth -

Buy Seth’s latest bestseller Meatball Sundae: Is Your Marketing Out of Sync? on Barnes & Noble.com.

Search Featured: Danny Sullivan

Every once in a while you hit a moment where you feel like time stands still. That is how I’ve felt in 2005 when I met Danny Sullivan after years in the SEO business.

Danny is the one person there needs to be no introduction for.

Search Feature has had an excellent start and who could I think of to have the next interview with?

Danny Sullivan was the one that came to my mind.

Without any further ado, here is my kickass interview with Mr. Sullivan himself:

Dammann: Hi Danny, first of all I appreciate you giving me this interview.

Back in the days when you´ve gotten started, nobody knew what SEO meant. How did you ever get into the business and what were you telling people that you were doing for a living?

Danny Sullivan: I left newspapers to do web development in 1995. Part of that was ensuring that web sites were listed properly in search engines. When we had one client really upset he wasn’t ranking for some term, I starting looking into exactly what factors were important. There weren’t a lot of answers out there. I published what I found in early 1996, and I remember proposing to our sales manager that we should be selling “search engine tuneups” as a separate service. She thought I was nuts. The web development company folded soon after, and I was out on my own as a consultant. I kept up the writing about search engines, plus I started offering the tuneup service on my own. Haven’t looked back since! I generally told people I wrote about search engines, pretty much the same way I still have to do today. Thought I saw Google a lot more. If they understood search engines, then I might explain the SEO side of things. I generally didn’t get into that much because I really didn’t want my taxi driver trying to get me ranking them better on a search engine

Mike Dammann: For years you have been the organizer of the SES Conventions in San Jose. Share some of your best memories and tell us what you yourself have learned during that time.

Danny Sullivan: Well, I started the SES conference series back in 1999, when the current president of my company, Third Door Media, proposed doing a search marketing conference. This was when we both then worked for Jupitermedia. I’ve got many great memories with range for the first ever conference, when no one knew what each other looked like. We all really only knew each other from online mailing lists, so it was a lot of fun matching perception to reality. The first Google Dance, when I was amazed to see blackhats as well as employees of competing search engines running around the Google Campus. The third Google Dance when some attendees put a couch on the bus. When Yahoo rented out Great America so search marketers could have a “night off.” Interviewing lots of search luminaries on stage, such as Sergey Brin, Eric Schmidt, Marissa Mayer, Jim Lanzone, Steve Berkowitz, Satya Nadella and Jerry Yang. I’ve got to gear up questions for Kevin Johnson now for our SMX Advanced show in Seattle this coming June! SMX — Search Marketing Expo — is of course my new conference series. I left behind my association with SES last year and now focus only on my own SMX shows.

Dammann: You are moving back to California now, what did you miss the most about Cali and do you surf?

Danny Sullivan: Well, I could say the weather and the lifestyle but I miss mainly that it’s “home” to me. I love the ocean, the area and being where I grew up. Sadly, I don’t surf. I’ve been out twice and really enjoyed it, but I’m a poor swimmer and don’t have a lot of upper body strength. But I might start working on that. I do enjoy taking out a boogie board, though I suck pretty much at that. One reason I love snowboarding so much is that it feels a lot like surfing but I don’t have to do all the swimming.

Mike Dammann: OK now to the boring stuff, actually this one is search related yet exciting to me. I personally believe that Searchme.com is going to become a major keyplayer in search. There are speculations amongst internet marketers that Google might want to buy them out. Do you see that happening and do you believe that people who start using it will become hooked on that way to find new sites?

Danny Sullivan: I’ve yet to play with SearchMe, but I highly doubt they’ll be a major player. What I’ve seen of it doesn’t seem that compelling. The search interfaces we have now are that way for a reason. Coming in with something radically new isn’t necessarily a game changer. I did a long post about this about two years ago: http://daggle.com/060919-204304.html

Mike Dammann: I have met almost everyone in the SEO business. Do you know what you stand for in my book? While there are so many little cliques and mini-wars, you always seem neutral and evaluate issues objectively. How do you stay this way and not let yourself get sucked into all of the little games being played.

Danny Sullivan: I’m a Libra, we’re all about balance But seriously, while I’m not a big astrology buff, I’ve generally been someone who tries to understand all sides and reach a consensus. Or if I can’t reach a consensus, I at least want people I disagree with to feel I’ve heard and respect their views. I guess I also decided early on, since I was running one of the few search sites out there, that I didn’t want to feel I had to be excluding content or people because they might be “competition.” I felt my strength was to be as inclusive as possible. I might be missing some good link bait as a result, but it’s just what fits for me.

Mike Dammann: Unsure of what I should ask, I went ahead and read some of your reasons for leaving SEW, and came across this
“But if I’m going to do something, I’m going to put my all into it, my entire being and soul.”
Any regrets or other comments which you would like to add?

Danny Sullivan: I regret that SEW and I couldn’t find a way for me to continue on together. In the end, I didn’t feel any incentive to help continue building a long-term brand I wasn’t going to benefit from. I know the break has caused some to feel they should be taking “sides” between publications and the respective conferences series that each publication backs. To the extent I can, I try to reassure people they don’t need to do that. Search marketing is still a small community, and I’d rather not have sides at all. But aside from that, nope, not regrets. In fact, I’ve loved the fresh start and being completely in control of my own destiny. It’s a lot more responsibility, but then again, if I want us to serve actual food on plates at our conferences, I can now make that happen

Mike Dammann: I´ve known you for about 3 years now and as a friend I HAVE TO ask you what you think about Search Feature so far and if there is any advice you can give us for a long term success, as you of course have created.

Danny Sullivan: Well, I won’t win any points here, because I’m behind on my reading. I’ve been swamped coming off of SMX West in February. But I was impressed with the SearchMe feature. There was a lot of good, unique material in that interview. I thought you pulled of a real coup with it. I think I was the second person to Sphinn it!

Mike Dammann: Everybody feels like they know you, tell us something we don´t know yet.

Danny Sullivan: Well, I did this 5 things you don’t know about me here: http://daggle.com/061218-132558.html. I’d probably add that I’m kind of shy. Might sound weird since I’m often on stage at a conference or something. But if I’m at a conference that has nothing to do with search, I tend to find it hard to get out and network. That’s one reason I’ve been really working to make sure people can network more easily at our SMX shows. I know what it’s like to be standing in that room and not being certain how to get started talking to people.

Mike Dammann: Third Door Media includes 4 brands, Search Engine Land, Search Marketing Expo, Search Marketing Now and Sphinn.
Have you already done everything that you wanted or do you have some new irons in the fire? Anything that you can share?

Danny Sullivan: I’ve got a million plans! Seriously, right now I want to see us spend time improving what we’ve already launched.

Mike Dammann: Isn´t it the case that the search engine marketing world encounteres many crazes? First there was the directory craze (we all know what happened to that), now there is the Social Media craze. Compare the two and predict the future for the second one.

Danny Sullivan: I don’t think social media is going away. I think lots of the social media sites are keepers, and that getting to know social media now will be as important as really understanding link building back in 2000 and before. Directories were important, but I felt as soon as you saw more and more search engines shifting to a crawling model, the writing was on the wall that they wouldn’t keep up. Directories as a link building resource is another issue entirely, of course. In that case, I think any “craze” that attracts a lot of public attention is likely to drop off in effectiveness.

Mike Dammann: What I myself am amazed with is the amount of misinformation when it comes to SEO and the insane statements some thank-goodness-not-well-known seo companies out there. Which do you consider the biggest mistake made by new and intermediate SEOs and how should people protect themselves from being misguided.

Danny Sullivan: That’s so hard to say. The biggest mistake I still feel is to obsess too much on the web listings. I keep saying that with blending or universal search, things like local and video and blog search are important new ways into the listings. But people still bow down to the seeming supremecy of web search. I want them to look beyond it. I’d also think that they sometimes look too much to the near term. Things don’t work, so they immediately want to change something based on something else they’ve read on the forum. They’ll let themselves get easily confused and change things before they fully understand what the real problem might be.

Mike Dammann: We all know the SEO celebrities, but who has impressed you lately who is new?

Danny Sullivan: I have to punt on this one, because there have been lots of new people writing that I’ve been impressed by, especially people I’ve been finding off of Sphinn.com. But I don’t have a good list I’ve assembled and I’m afraid I’m gonig to leave some people off. But the blogroll on Search Engine Land? Those are all people who’ve generally been noteworthy in some way.

Mike Dammann: Remember the hat you wore during your speech at the SES 2005? Do you still have it? If so, please keep it, unless you give it to me.

Danny Sullivan: That’s so long ago now. I think it was a black hat someone gave me, but I can’t remember now. I did buy a bunch of hats for people at Great American, funny ones like pimp hats, so maybe it was one of those.

Mike Dammann: Now we´re still in the Wild West of the internet world. As Aaron has said, you can outrank companies spending Millions thru creativity and passion. Do you believe that will be possible in 10 years or will ever position that can make people money have at least some sort of price.

Danny Sullivan: I still think 10 years from now, it won’t be money buys all. Creativity and passion should, I certainly hope, still get rewarded.

Mike Dammann: I was surprised to find out your name is Danny and not Daniel, legally. I´m sure that many people don´t know that.

Danny Sullivan: Yep, blame my mom, I guess. I’ve had editors over the years who have tried to “grow me up” by changing my bylines, and I’m always like, Um, it’s my name, not a nickname.

Mike Dammann: What inspires you the most when you do your work? And which part do you like the least?

Danny Sullivan: I hate feeling like there’s too much to do, and I’m probably least inspired if a flame war breaks out. But I’m most inspired that people still seems to find what I do useful. I’ll get that email saying thanks, this really helped, and it can mean the world to m.

Mike Dammann: Let´s say you were new to SEO, had a site and don´t know anybody in the business. With what you know today, what would you advise yourself to do today to get your website ranked and stay ranked?

Danny Sullivan: To get my own SEO site ranked? I wouldn’t even try. Competition is hard, with people doing it for years ahead of you. I’d focus on doing a blog and trying to show my knowledge of SEO through my writing.

Mike Dammann: You are many people´s hero in SEO. Who are your heroes and why?

Danny Sullivan: Again, there are so many people I should name and will forget. Glenn Fleishman stands out for having guided the I-Search marketing list way back when I first got started and gave me and many others a home there.

Mike Dammann: Danny, I have many more questions, but before I ask you the same things that everyone wants to know, I would like you to tell us a little bit about what some of the highlights of the next Search Marketing Expos will be.

Danny Sullivan: SMX Advanced is our next big show, and we’ve got a lot of great stuff. An entire day just for developers. A look at how search marketers can survive a recession. Buying sites as an SEO tactic. Making sure you’re measuring the right things. The return of our Give It Up panel. Overall, the key thing is that the entire show takes the conversation up a notch. Those pitching know they’ve got to please advanced search marketers, so they’ve really got to have “wow” material. And no one is the audience is going to ask, “What’s a meta tag?”

Mike Dammann: Will creativity become more important when getting natural rankings in the future?

Danny Sullivan: Well, that’s hard to answer. Creativity like being a smarter black hat? I think creativity will be important, but I’d put that down in general to thinking outside the box, finding a way for your site to really stand out from the 100s of others that are out there as an outstanding destination

Mike Dammann: Google loves information. Because of that it seems that blogs definitely get extra consideration, especially certain platforms like Wordpress. One thing that I am noticing is that more and more blog entries which are old and information wise outdated outrank fresh, new and timewise accurate blogposts making it harder for web searchers to get the news and updates they would like. Is this something that you believe Google is trying to and will fix?

Danny Sullivan: I’ve seen the opposite, too — that fresh blog posts can come in and outrank older material. Ask yourself how that can happen, how any brand new post can carry more weight so quickly. The answer is that the domain, the web site itself, carries a lot of authority. If you want to outrank everyone else, you really need to build a well-respected, trusted domain. That won’t happen overnight. It’s going to take months, perhaps years, of consistent work. But you can get there, and when you do, it’s golden.

Danny, it was the pimp hat you were wearing, and if you don’t remember it, I will.

Thank you for this excellent interview and the compliment.

Wish you many more years of success and may the best be yet to come.

Take care!

~ Mike Dammann

Note: If any of you have comments, suggestions, or questions, leave it on this post. We have many more great interviews to come, and if you would like to let us know how we are doing or if you have a question for Danny, go for it!

John Holland, Co-founder of SearchMe

MD: John, the whole search engine marketing world is currently talking about your new search engine and many of us are a part of the BETA testing. What gave you the idea to create a visual search engine and how long did it take you to develop the product as it is right now?
JH: We wanted to create something different in search. We got the idea by asking ourselves how the Internet had changed in the last 5 years. One of those ways is broadband, another way is that it’s a lot bigger. Our visual interface and categorization address today’s Internet. We’ve spent 3 years on our technology, with various research stops along the way.
MD: John, many of my readers might not know you (yet). What is your background and what would you consider your main area of interest?

Here’s my bio: http://www.crunchbase.com/person/john-holland

My main interest with regards to the net is how the internet is transforming culture. on the side, i like music, politics, film, art, food, and travel.

MD: OK for the life of me, I cannot figure out your algorithm. The results are slightly different than the other search engines, or rather Google in particular. Without the need to reveal too much (of course every SEO wants to know as much as possible), what is your algorithm based on and how important of a role do you believe it will play when it comes to the future of SearchMe.
JH: The order is determined by a number of factors. Every major search engine uses a combination of algorithmic and editorial features to rank results by relevance. We do the same, but we also categorize the results to make it easier to find what you’re looking for. This algorithm will be essential, especially as we tune it for categories and visual search.

MD: John, everyone I have spoken to is into SearchMe and predicts a great future. What are your predictions? Not just for SearchMe, but internet search within the next few years.

JH: I think search is going to get richer, and simpler. Search has to live on mobile phones and TV, not just the Internet. And it has to work for real people. Scanning rows and rows of text is neither simple nor natural for many people. Now, I personally am a text-based search geek. But I meet many people who aren’t, and I think they will be very important in the future of search.

MD: What were some of your biggest obstacles to overcome and how did you overcome them?
JH: Imaging a billion pages is a challenge. After brute force, you have to get intelligent about how you image. Our other big challenge was a category schema and suggest engine. We did this with a combination of human information scientists, and machine learning.

MD: John, are you friends with anybody in the search engine marketing industry? We all know that Google has Matt Cutts. How closely are you going to network with SEOs and what purpose do you believe hanging out with SEOs serves?
JH: Haha, I have all kinds of friends. My background is marketing, so I’ve worked in the past more with SEOs than SEMs. One way or another, you have to “pay to play,” and I’ve found SEM more straightforward. That said, I think SEO’s do a real service to users if it’s done right.

Other than search engines, technology and the internet, what are your passions and what inspires you?
JH: Charity. All of us in technology are so fortunate for the things we have. I’d like to find ways to help us all give a little.

MD: You are the co-founder. Would you introduce your team to us and give us an insight on who the biggest players are?
JH: EVERYONE in our company is a big player, perhaps because we are a small company. My partner and our CEO, Randy Adams is amazingly talented and creative, and the product owes a lot to him. We have a whole group of engineers, information scientists, and web developers that is fantastic.

MD: John, thank you so much for this interview. Is there anything I didn’t ask you that you would like to be able to share with our readers?
JH: Probably that we’re just getting started. Our approach opens up a world of possibility, and we’re excited to be a part of the search ecosystem.

Thanks for the opportunity!

To find out how you can become a BETA tester and experience visual search on your own, go to Searchme.com and tell us what you think!

Check out the press page as well.

Searchfeatured: Rand Fishkin

Rand Fishkin was nice enough to talk with Search Feature about his life, successes and answer some search questions that come up often.

For those of you experiencing the Internet for the first time, Rand is CEO and co-founder of SEOmoz. SEOmoz is a leader in the search marketing industry and provides webmasters, and the common folk, with search education, tools, resources, and paid services.

Here’s the Q&A with Rand and Mike

Q: Rand, first of all thank you very much for this interview. It’s been about 3 years since we have actually met face to face. How have you been since and what would you call your biggest accomplishments within that period.

A: I’ve been very well, but overwhelming busy. My days are packed with tasks, meetings, emails, calls and contact. It’s a hectic life, but I’m really enjoying it and it’s a great feeling to see the impact the company has on the search marketing world. As for my biggest accomplishment, I’d probably have to say that personally, it’s my engagement to my wonderful fiancée and our upcoming wedding this fall. Professionally, the construction of a team of 15 dedicated, smart, passionate people at SEOmoz (from a size of 3 in 2004) has been an eye-opening, but rewarding experience.

Q: Rand, a lot of discussions have been started regarding “Page Strength“. Which mistakes have you made in the past and what have you done to fix them?

A: By mistakes, I’m guessing you mean with the tool itself? There have been quite a few - it was never built to support the level of traffic it receives, and until this October, when we re-launch rebuilt versions of all the tools and the tool processes from scratch, it will still be slow at times, and have occasional inaccuracy. The demands of creating a tool to grab and process that level of data thousands of times each data is non-trivial, and we’ve certainly been humbled by all the work it entails.

Q: Rand, everybody looks up to you and at you for SEO advice. Who do you consult with when you get stuck or need some input on a blog post or some new developments in the world of SEO?

Read more

Searchfeatured: Aaron Wall!

Before I start, I want to express how grateful I am that Aaron Wall has agreed to be the first SEO celebrity to be Search featured on our blog.

Aaron, this is a big favor. Out of all the SEO people out there, you are my first choice, so this is a sign.

Jason, thank you for the joke that made this happen.

Without any further ado, here is Aaron answering questions which I´ve had on my mind:

1) [Search Feature] Aaron, in the past 3 years you have become one of the top faces of SEO. I however remember you as being one of the first to ever respond to my questions on Digital Point. You have once mentioned that the first year of doing SEO you´ve only made a small amount of money.
What kept you going and at what point did you realize you´ve had something there?

[Aaron] At that point in time I was not all that much motivated by money, but I knew SEO would be big soon after getting on the web. It just seemed like a way to give a voice to the voiceless, and that to me was a powerful idea.

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2) [Search Feature] Aaron, in the past, we have not had guys like Matt Cutts or anybody from Google give us feedback. We pretty much experimented around and figured it out for ourselves. How do you believe that Google employees befriending SEOs has changed the market and why do you think it all happened in the first place?

[Aaron] I think that Google looks out for Google’s best interests. I think Google felt that to look out for Google’s best interests they needed to have active voices manipulating the marketplace. And so we got garbage like link rel=nofollow. Not sure if/how that benefits us though.

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3) [Search Feature] I believe that a lot of young and new webmasters are drawn to blackhat. It seems to be the cooler and easier way to go. What would you tell someone age 13, a new webmaster kid, to get him on the track you believe is better for him/her?

[Aaron] If they are great at programming and want to give it a go then try it. For me the whole black hat vs white hat thing is a bit arbitrary. I think that black hat is continually refined to include anything that gives a great short term ROI and is easy to detect and kill. It is all a game of risk vs reward. At this point in time I have come to realize that if I want to build a real sustainable brand much more value needs to go into customer interaction than in short term ranking schemes.

Years ago when I was less well known my site got filtered out for its own name when Google rolled in a new algorithm. And that really had minimal effects on my sales (even as a person selling an information product about SEO).

http://www.search-marketing.info/newsletter/articles/seo-vacuum.htm

Search is good for letting prospects find you, but not for converting if you sell a high touch service. For that you need emotional resonance and word of mouth marketing.

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4) [Search Feature] One thing about you is that you seem to love detail. Everything you put out there, you examine and seem to not miss anything. Are you very passionate about SEO and what is it that you like about it so much?

[Aaron] It is the idea that amongst all the backdrop of corruption, circle-jerking, self-promotion, lies, and manipulation from soulless corporations  that an individual can compete and dominate the marketplace simply by being more passionate.

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5) [Search Feature] OK, I was told that I´ve met you at the Ask party at the SES 2005. I really don´t remember, but remember it being an awesome party. Which one of the conventions was your favorite and what are some of your best memories?

[Aaron] I would say the first ones meant more to me than the most recent ones. But that is how dopamine works. When something is new you get a bigger rush from it. Then as time passes and it becomes normal you do not get as much of a rush from it.

Some people who have been in the industry 3 times as long as I have still go to like 3 conferences a month…I am not sure how they pull that off. I would get burned out.

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6) [Search Feature] OK, and last but not least, where do you see SEO and YOURSELF headed. What else do you want to do that you have not yet done?

[Aaron] I want to keep making a bunch more SEO Tools  http://tools.seobook.com/ , extend out my SEO training program http://www.seobook.com/join/ , and keep learning about the broader field of marketing. I would love to create a site as strong as SEO Book outside the SEO market, and my wife http://www.heygio.com/ is working on making that happen.

Changes at SEO Book