Search Featured: Danny Sullivan

Every once in a while you hit a moment where you feel like time stands still. That is how I’ve felt in 2005 when I met Danny Sullivan after years in the SEO business.

Danny is the one person there needs to be no introduction for.

Search Feature has had an excellent start and who could I think of to have the next interview with?

Danny Sullivan was the one that came to my mind.

Without any further ado, here is my kickass interview with Mr. Sullivan himself:

Dammann: Hi Danny, first of all I appreciate you giving me this interview.

Back in the days when you´ve gotten started, nobody knew what SEO meant. How did you ever get into the business and what were you telling people that you were doing for a living?

Danny Sullivan: I left newspapers to do web development in 1995. Part of that was ensuring that web sites were listed properly in search engines. When we had one client really upset he wasn’t ranking for some term, I starting looking into exactly what factors were important. There weren’t a lot of answers out there. I published what I found in early 1996, and I remember proposing to our sales manager that we should be selling “search engine tuneups” as a separate service. She thought I was nuts. The web development company folded soon after, and I was out on my own as a consultant. I kept up the writing about search engines, plus I started offering the tuneup service on my own. Haven’t looked back since! I generally told people I wrote about search engines, pretty much the same way I still have to do today. Thought I saw Google a lot more. If they understood search engines, then I might explain the SEO side of things. I generally didn’t get into that much because I really didn’t want my taxi driver trying to get me ranking them better on a search engine

Mike Dammann: For years you have been the organizer of the SES Conventions in San Jose. Share some of your best memories and tell us what you yourself have learned during that time.

Danny Sullivan: Well, I started the SES conference series back in 1999, when the current president of my company, Third Door Media, proposed doing a search marketing conference. This was when we both then worked for Jupitermedia. I’ve got many great memories with range for the first ever conference, when no one knew what each other looked like. We all really only knew each other from online mailing lists, so it was a lot of fun matching perception to reality. The first Google Dance, when I was amazed to see blackhats as well as employees of competing search engines running around the Google Campus. The third Google Dance when some attendees put a couch on the bus. When Yahoo rented out Great America so search marketers could have a “night off.” Interviewing lots of search luminaries on stage, such as Sergey Brin, Eric Schmidt, Marissa Mayer, Jim Lanzone, Steve Berkowitz, Satya Nadella and Jerry Yang. I’ve got to gear up questions for Kevin Johnson now for our SMX Advanced show in Seattle this coming June! SMX — Search Marketing Expo — is of course my new conference series. I left behind my association with SES last year and now focus only on my own SMX shows.

Dammann: You are moving back to California now, what did you miss the most about Cali and do you surf?

Danny Sullivan: Well, I could say the weather and the lifestyle but I miss mainly that it’s “home” to me. I love the ocean, the area and being where I grew up. Sadly, I don’t surf. I’ve been out twice and really enjoyed it, but I’m a poor swimmer and don’t have a lot of upper body strength. But I might start working on that. I do enjoy taking out a boogie board, though I suck pretty much at that. One reason I love snowboarding so much is that it feels a lot like surfing but I don’t have to do all the swimming.

Mike Dammann: OK now to the boring stuff, actually this one is search related yet exciting to me. I personally believe that Searchme.com is going to become a major keyplayer in search. There are speculations amongst internet marketers that Google might want to buy them out. Do you see that happening and do you believe that people who start using it will become hooked on that way to find new sites?

Danny Sullivan: I’ve yet to play with SearchMe, but I highly doubt they’ll be a major player. What I’ve seen of it doesn’t seem that compelling. The search interfaces we have now are that way for a reason. Coming in with something radically new isn’t necessarily a game changer. I did a long post about this about two years ago: http://daggle.com/060919-204304.html

Mike Dammann: I have met almost everyone in the SEO business. Do you know what you stand for in my book? While there are so many little cliques and mini-wars, you always seem neutral and evaluate issues objectively. How do you stay this way and not let yourself get sucked into all of the little games being played.

Danny Sullivan: I’m a Libra, we’re all about balance But seriously, while I’m not a big astrology buff, I’ve generally been someone who tries to understand all sides and reach a consensus. Or if I can’t reach a consensus, I at least want people I disagree with to feel I’ve heard and respect their views. I guess I also decided early on, since I was running one of the few search sites out there, that I didn’t want to feel I had to be excluding content or people because they might be “competition.” I felt my strength was to be as inclusive as possible. I might be missing some good link bait as a result, but it’s just what fits for me.

Mike Dammann: Unsure of what I should ask, I went ahead and read some of your reasons for leaving SEW, and came across this
“But if I’m going to do something, I’m going to put my all into it, my entire being and soul.”
Any regrets or other comments which you would like to add?

Danny Sullivan: I regret that SEW and I couldn’t find a way for me to continue on together. In the end, I didn’t feel any incentive to help continue building a long-term brand I wasn’t going to benefit from. I know the break has caused some to feel they should be taking “sides” between publications and the respective conferences series that each publication backs. To the extent I can, I try to reassure people they don’t need to do that. Search marketing is still a small community, and I’d rather not have sides at all. But aside from that, nope, not regrets. In fact, I’ve loved the fresh start and being completely in control of my own destiny. It’s a lot more responsibility, but then again, if I want us to serve actual food on plates at our conferences, I can now make that happen

Mike Dammann: I´ve known you for about 3 years now and as a friend I HAVE TO ask you what you think about Search Feature so far and if there is any advice you can give us for a long term success, as you of course have created.

Danny Sullivan: Well, I won’t win any points here, because I’m behind on my reading. I’ve been swamped coming off of SMX West in February. But I was impressed with the SearchMe feature. There was a lot of good, unique material in that interview. I thought you pulled of a real coup with it. I think I was the second person to Sphinn it!

Mike Dammann: Everybody feels like they know you, tell us something we don´t know yet.

Danny Sullivan: Well, I did this 5 things you don’t know about me here: http://daggle.com/061218-132558.html. I’d probably add that I’m kind of shy. Might sound weird since I’m often on stage at a conference or something. But if I’m at a conference that has nothing to do with search, I tend to find it hard to get out and network. That’s one reason I’ve been really working to make sure people can network more easily at our SMX shows. I know what it’s like to be standing in that room and not being certain how to get started talking to people.

Mike Dammann: Third Door Media includes 4 brands, Search Engine Land, Search Marketing Expo, Search Marketing Now and Sphinn.
Have you already done everything that you wanted or do you have some new irons in the fire? Anything that you can share?

Danny Sullivan: I’ve got a million plans! Seriously, right now I want to see us spend time improving what we’ve already launched.

Mike Dammann: Isn´t it the case that the search engine marketing world encounteres many crazes? First there was the directory craze (we all know what happened to that), now there is the Social Media craze. Compare the two and predict the future for the second one.

Danny Sullivan: I don’t think social media is going away. I think lots of the social media sites are keepers, and that getting to know social media now will be as important as really understanding link building back in 2000 and before. Directories were important, but I felt as soon as you saw more and more search engines shifting to a crawling model, the writing was on the wall that they wouldn’t keep up. Directories as a link building resource is another issue entirely, of course. In that case, I think any “craze” that attracts a lot of public attention is likely to drop off in effectiveness.

Mike Dammann: What I myself am amazed with is the amount of misinformation when it comes to SEO and the insane statements some thank-goodness-not-well-known seo companies out there. Which do you consider the biggest mistake made by new and intermediate SEOs and how should people protect themselves from being misguided.

Danny Sullivan: That’s so hard to say. The biggest mistake I still feel is to obsess too much on the web listings. I keep saying that with blending or universal search, things like local and video and blog search are important new ways into the listings. But people still bow down to the seeming supremecy of web search. I want them to look beyond it. I’d also think that they sometimes look too much to the near term. Things don’t work, so they immediately want to change something based on something else they’ve read on the forum. They’ll let themselves get easily confused and change things before they fully understand what the real problem might be.

Mike Dammann: We all know the SEO celebrities, but who has impressed you lately who is new?

Danny Sullivan: I have to punt on this one, because there have been lots of new people writing that I’ve been impressed by, especially people I’ve been finding off of Sphinn.com. But I don’t have a good list I’ve assembled and I’m afraid I’m gonig to leave some people off. But the blogroll on Search Engine Land? Those are all people who’ve generally been noteworthy in some way.

Mike Dammann: Remember the hat you wore during your speech at the SES 2005? Do you still have it? If so, please keep it, unless you give it to me.

Danny Sullivan: That’s so long ago now. I think it was a black hat someone gave me, but I can’t remember now. I did buy a bunch of hats for people at Great American, funny ones like pimp hats, so maybe it was one of those.

Mike Dammann: Now we´re still in the Wild West of the internet world. As Aaron has said, you can outrank companies spending Millions thru creativity and passion. Do you believe that will be possible in 10 years or will ever position that can make people money have at least some sort of price.

Danny Sullivan: I still think 10 years from now, it won’t be money buys all. Creativity and passion should, I certainly hope, still get rewarded.

Mike Dammann: I was surprised to find out your name is Danny and not Daniel, legally. I´m sure that many people don´t know that.

Danny Sullivan: Yep, blame my mom, I guess. I’ve had editors over the years who have tried to “grow me up” by changing my bylines, and I’m always like, Um, it’s my name, not a nickname.

Mike Dammann: What inspires you the most when you do your work? And which part do you like the least?

Danny Sullivan: I hate feeling like there’s too much to do, and I’m probably least inspired if a flame war breaks out. But I’m most inspired that people still seems to find what I do useful. I’ll get that email saying thanks, this really helped, and it can mean the world to m.

Mike Dammann: Let´s say you were new to SEO, had a site and don´t know anybody in the business. With what you know today, what would you advise yourself to do today to get your website ranked and stay ranked?

Danny Sullivan: To get my own SEO site ranked? I wouldn’t even try. Competition is hard, with people doing it for years ahead of you. I’d focus on doing a blog and trying to show my knowledge of SEO through my writing.

Mike Dammann: You are many people´s hero in SEO. Who are your heroes and why?

Danny Sullivan: Again, there are so many people I should name and will forget. Glenn Fleishman stands out for having guided the I-Search marketing list way back when I first got started and gave me and many others a home there.

Mike Dammann: Danny, I have many more questions, but before I ask you the same things that everyone wants to know, I would like you to tell us a little bit about what some of the highlights of the next Search Marketing Expos will be.

Danny Sullivan: SMX Advanced is our next big show, and we’ve got a lot of great stuff. An entire day just for developers. A look at how search marketers can survive a recession. Buying sites as an SEO tactic. Making sure you’re measuring the right things. The return of our Give It Up panel. Overall, the key thing is that the entire show takes the conversation up a notch. Those pitching know they’ve got to please advanced search marketers, so they’ve really got to have “wow” material. And no one is the audience is going to ask, “What’s a meta tag?”

Mike Dammann: Will creativity become more important when getting natural rankings in the future?

Danny Sullivan: Well, that’s hard to answer. Creativity like being a smarter black hat? I think creativity will be important, but I’d put that down in general to thinking outside the box, finding a way for your site to really stand out from the 100s of others that are out there as an outstanding destination

Mike Dammann: Google loves information. Because of that it seems that blogs definitely get extra consideration, especially certain platforms like Wordpress. One thing that I am noticing is that more and more blog entries which are old and information wise outdated outrank fresh, new and timewise accurate blogposts making it harder for web searchers to get the news and updates they would like. Is this something that you believe Google is trying to and will fix?

Danny Sullivan: I’ve seen the opposite, too — that fresh blog posts can come in and outrank older material. Ask yourself how that can happen, how any brand new post can carry more weight so quickly. The answer is that the domain, the web site itself, carries a lot of authority. If you want to outrank everyone else, you really need to build a well-respected, trusted domain. That won’t happen overnight. It’s going to take months, perhaps years, of consistent work. But you can get there, and when you do, it’s golden.

Danny, it was the pimp hat you were wearing, and if you don’t remember it, I will.

Thank you for this excellent interview and the compliment.

Wish you many more years of success and may the best be yet to come.

Take care!

~ Mike Dammann

Note: If any of you have comments, suggestions, or questions, leave it on this post. We have many more great interviews to come, and if you would like to let us know how we are doing or if you have a question for Danny, go for it!